Dawdling GLSKS
Published July 25, 2012 | 
“And a great time was had by all!” You already know that byline right? We all went to the symposium and we all learned stuff, connected with old friends, and had a great, fantastic, marvelous time! That’s true too. We did. As for me, I finally was able to actually paddle Pictured Rocks National Lake Shore. In fact, since we took a few camera nuts out, it meant we were not under any pressure to do a 15 mile day or hit some arbitrary target that standard day trips seem to impose. Instead we diddled and dawdled. If you ask me, that’s as it should be. To my mind, flying by the scenery just to hit some arbitrary target misses the whole point entirely. I could lead dawdle trips every year!
Bryan Hansel cruising past a calico wall.
I spent time teaching rolling with Mr. Salsa Hip himself, Roy Martin. Roy’s got his own way of teaching of course, but when people try to get too judgmental about it, they should also note his success rate. It’s pretty good. In fact, I share many points of view with Roy, even if we may express it in different ways. It doesn’t matter if you are teaching Euro rolls or traditional Greenland style, the foundation of Greenland rolling will bring people along faster and give them a more “bomb proof” roll in the long run. I can teach people a C2C or a modified sweep in old school style, but honestly if this is their first roll, I feel like I’m robbing them of some important foundation skills.. That’s why I tend to begin with a traditional rolling structure even if I know it will end up applying to a Euro roll. I think the best part of the weekend for me was churning out students with a brand new balance brace.. Especially since I can’t do it. I’m not sure how that works, but it does… Go fig!
So yeah, GLSKS was a great gig. It always is.
11 Responses to Dawdling GLSKS
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There certainly is method in Roy’s madness.
That said, based on your experience – you would’ve never had a roll using that particular method, since the balance brace is beyond your reach?
Perhaps a dogmatic approach to coaching is not what is needed, unless the dogma is to focus on efficacy with emphasis on safety?
You’re right of course that dogma is never the answer, however in learning how the balance brace worked, I was able to better understand the body, boat relationship and pull my focus away from the paddle. The good “dogma” is the part where we teach that that paddle is the least important element of the roll. How we get there depends on the goals and the student.
I find it is a revelation to many rolling students when I suggest that the standard greenland roll is really all bout the feet (and legs) righting the kayak. A twisting motion that starts at the feet and ends up at the hips. Sort of.
The paddle is only about stability and the last little push unto the back deck. Could just as easily be a throwing stick or a clenched fist.
(The same thing applies to the balance brace, I think. Feet, and then the hips towards the sky, eyebrows under water.)
Well, that’s my little input…
I am just a student who wants a roll and is getting there.
I have had to cut through some dogma to get there, and I suppose it’ll piss people off that I refer to it as dogma and challenge it as dogma.
I was taught the c to c roll in August 2008 and got one, because it was the only roll the instructor knew how to teach. Felt great excitement which soon subsided when I tried to practice alone and found it very hard because it is an all or nothing roll (difficult to recover when missed).
Following that was 2.5 years of rotator cuff injuries (first the left, then,overlapping, I dinged the right one, too -neither from paddling) which had to be rehabbed without medical consultation and treatment (no health care) that left me very skittish of high braces and rolling, esp. c to c which seemed to have the greater risk of putting a shoulder at a bad angle. So I pretty much shelved the idea of trying to roll, and was very tentative about it the couple of sessions I had (which were both c to c).
I decided to begin again when I had the chance to work w. Helen Wilson at the 24/7 rolling beach at GLSKS 2011. A very wise person, Suzanne Hutchinson, told me to erase everything I’d ever been taught and not tell the instructor what I (thought I had) learned previously. Because a lot of it hadn’t helped me, and a lot of it was dogma that I just could not accept unquestioningly!
Helen had me and her other student rolling well within 20 minutes of individual time. We were not the only ones. We both returned to a special semi private session that afternoon and saw several other student roll. I can assure you, no one was seeing any “madness” there.. just a gift and a passion. No one saw any ACA or BCU letters there either… we weren’t looking for them. We were looking get a roll (rather, get started on one, it takes a while even after hitting a handful).
The two instructors who helped me the most are Helen Wilson and Roy Martin. Right behind them, Doug Van Doren ( because I only had a fast 10 minutes at end of day under Doug’s tutelage).They all teach a bit differently but have much more in common than in variance. And they all teach from the traditional greenland platform.
It is far from madness. Starting w. the balance brace, it is a great progression which builds confidence in a very realistic way, as it along w. the sculling brace offer a great recovery and “do over” position.
They teach as though they *expect* you will be able to roll. Much better than dogma-induced instruction which makes it an “advanced skill” wherein one must ascend a peak of athleticism and “get after it” in a macho way w. fast, violent movements.
This inadvertently psyches out students. And that is madness.
At GLSKS the 24/7 rolling beach, where a student can drop in and get on the water to learn, is a brilliant concept. Credit belongs to Roy Martin for championing that format and not the usual initial land sessions where we students sweat and shift our body parts in the sand. Or, in the water, the hip snaps off the bow or the instructor’s hands. Although I can do those things, and pretty well, I can now tell that for me they had very little to do w. learning to roll – it’s not really the same motion in the same orientation.Yet I am sure that in a hundred other venues from pool to beach that is what is being done. I find that dogmatic and I won’t be investing any time or money in roll sessions which utilize them.
I am a student. I am after success. Does not matter if the person teaching me is certified. Not that I belittle those who are, because I picked up a few things from them, too. Just saying that it’s not a prerequisite for me.
There are many roads up the mountain. It would be a shame to blockade one out of dogma and envy.
And because that way lies madness… for our sport.
damn, just realized that you, Derrick, might construe my post as a reply or counterpoint to you… not at all. You are not part of the problem… you have always struck me as open to innovation in kayak instruction and other things.
It’s very perceptive,coming from your background in instructing, to write as you did and I admire you for it.
I find the balance brace – with and without the paddle – to be a key skill. When it’s going great other things are going well, too. When it’s not I return to square one and get it going.
On Sunday morning at GLSKS someone asked me to do a balance brace while I was waiting to work w. Roy. I should have just said no, I’m concentrating on something else – or I’m not a damned trained seal, how about that – but I let myself down and rushed into it, and blew it, twice and started flailing around and was underwater quite a while because I was twisted the wrong way to find the release strap. I will not let that happen to me again. I will say no the next time (and practice getting the strap released when I am out of position).
Out here I find that the people who put the least stock in doing it – to the point of denigrating it – are the people who can’t do it. You are most definitely not in that group, and besides, as you told me, there is one kayak you *can* do it in
I can’t figure out a way to construe your post as a counterpoint to Derick’s, I think both your posts support Derick’s points completely.
Balance brace is the best way towards the roll, at least in my book. Unfortunately, the good balance brace depends on a bunch of factors, some subjective, others objective. Anyone who tried to teach or work on a balance brace can, probably, come up with the full list; I would especially love to hear Roy’s input on this.
Since I, as a person trying to teach a roll, can not affect most of the factors, I can not reliably use balance brace as a stepping stone to a roll for a student who shows up with the sole reason of acquiring a roll at the end of two hour session. I could let him or her flop around and twist and leave quite a bit frustrated at the end of session, but I choose to teach a few other skills that transfer quite to some rescues and benefit boat control skills.
When working on rolling, especially one on one, I can and do use body positioning for going into balance brace and body mechanics for coming out of balance brace, since it does not significantly depend on boat fit or flexibility and automagically leads to a sweep roll.
BTW, even though you had difficulties with that demo on Sunday, you did learn something from it. Think of it as a “combat balance brace”
Glad you guys are here to fill out my loose ideas.. LOL! I don’t think anyone has to successfully perform the balance brace, it’s (as you’ve covered) simply a better way to teach body mechanics regardless of the roll your use in the end.
uh, yes, my posts are not a counterpoint to Derrick’s. I didn’t want it construed as saying he was part of the dogmatic sector thus he follow up post.
I think we are all in agreement that learning a balance brace (as far as one gets with it) is valuable body mechanics.
And no, I don’t think that incident on Sunday was rewarding or useful at all…I didn’t solve my problem myself. Practically speaking if I was alone I might have drowned. I can’t put a smiley face after that.
I was underwater a long time, and thankfully I have been learning to lengthen my hang time and so didn’t swallow any water until you came over and flipped me up. I had to regain my composure after the first one, and never should have tried the second one again so soon. I put that on myself, just as my failure to find the release on the skirt.
Just because I didn’t show it doesn’t mean it wasn’t upsetting. Rolling is mostly mental and it was not a good place to be before starting my session. I really had to refocus so my last session w. Roy would be useful.
My apologies then
apologies accepted, of course. I would not hold it against you Marius. You didn’t know.
This is the first time I’ve talked about it .I just told Roy I had just blown two balance braces. We worked on getting it right, and then went on to other things.
It’s the second time in 5 weeks that I was left upside down during a class for a really long time (to say 25 seconds is no exaggeration). In fact it was during a rescue class! 14 other students just sitting in their boats like passive knobs. Finally one of them offered a bow for a bow rescue, I saw it while I was coming up for a breath to go back down again and figure out why the skirt release was snagged.
The instructor never came near my boat. She did say I had really great hang time. Once again i just got upright and made no fuss. Then I went to an instructor candidate who was helping out and he kindly helped me to do a couple wet exits.
A couple of the male students came up later and said they were amazed that the ACA instructor didn’t get involved or even direct any help while I was upside down.
I take my share of responsibility for my failures in both incidents. In this incident I had the sennet braid of a contact tow too close to the release strap. I have now carefully rearranged it further back on the deck. I obviously should have used the knee strap or starting peeling off the skirt at the midpoint. I see where I need to work on things and I will even if I have to practice alone. I have no trouble staying underwater to learn rolling and other underwater stuff.
We need and are told to relax and trust instructors to “push the envelope” but things still happen and perhaps instructors don’t realize the impact.
I think this forum is valuable so that students and instructors can share experiences and viewpoints.
AHHHH…The infamous Balance Brace question. The BB is a tool to better understand and help learn the roll.
on it’s own it is a very nice thing to be able to do {for the record, Silbs has done a BB, he did it both in my AA and in his skin boat} moving along……some boats don’t BB easily, and some bodies don’t BB easily..time to move on to the sculling for support. The idea is to be able to slow the roll down to it’s components so that no sudden violent action is done in the learning process. When trying to sort out the mechanics of a roll a student can hurt themselves before they can be stopped, if they are attempting quick sudden moves. I like {as do many Greenland teachers} to teach the roll from the finish forward. so the end of a lay back recovery roll is from the BB or from the sculling position to the glide onto the rear deck. Once the end of the roll is perfected….then the transition to that end is a simple step to putting it all together. Sometimes the person that is learning tends to gravitate to doing an Angel or butterfly roll first. If it seems to be that that roll will be easier for them, then that i what I teach them first. Some kayaks with high rear decks don’t lend themselves to learning a full lay-back recovery…sometimes I teach a forward recovery roll first…those are based on chest sculling and driving the nose to the knee. A person needs the foundation of a good solid roll in order to practice. In the past I have seen people that got a lucky roll then went off to celebrate…..until you have completed 100 rolls of a certain kind…it’s only time to celebrate a beginning:}